tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post4897117490117090181..comments2024-01-01T13:55:05.686-08:00Comments on RC Sproul Jr: Ask RC: Is there anything wrong with drums and guitars in church?RC Sproul Jr.http://www.blogger.com/profile/10021618819499117817noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-80880441223713440372023-11-19T05:04:40.402-08:002023-11-19T05:04:40.402-08:00You are right, it's not the instruments themse...You are right, it's not the instruments themselves, just there is a 95% correlation with the problems and the guitar, but it isn't at the root the guitar. The problem is that it's a concert where men use it to get up in front of everyone, get tons of attention (from women), and look cool. If you put all the worship people where they are unnoticeable and tune down the guitars/limit the mics and make them play chords and not strum, the problem would be alleviated. In fact if you did all that, I'd bet people would stop pushing for guitars to have to be included in worship Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-73818306735050783602023-11-19T04:59:18.827-08:002023-11-19T04:59:18.827-08:00The hymns themselves are not Holy, but it is clear...The hymns themselves are not Holy, but it is clear and evident at face value just how much more the people writing the hymns were intelligent, reflective, nuanced, and serious about the depths of the Christian faith and the seriousness that it is to worship the Triune God. Some of those hymn writers were some of the best poets of their era. That is not modern worship is. I will worship the Triune God in trembling joy, those that yip can reflect on how they come before the throne with such frivolityAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-47910449262722878512023-11-19T04:54:40.325-08:002023-11-19T04:54:40.325-08:00Grab the guitar strummer and the drummer dummies, ...Grab the guitar strummer and the drummer dummies, put them out of sight + take off their mics on instruments to where they get no attention, and see how well everything cleans up. The problem is not correctly identifying the problem and calling it out. The problem is people using worship to get attention and women and sapping focus and seriousness from the worship of the Triune GodAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-6658551995453842122023-11-19T04:51:49.894-08:002023-11-19T04:51:49.894-08:00We need to stop approaching this in good faith wit...We need to stop approaching this in good faith with very tight not arguments and approach bold as we know what the problem is and what the reason for it is. Modern worship/worship leaders, youth groups, and guitars are the instrument (double meaning) used by Beta-males in the church to seize power from the masculine leaders. It used by beta young men to get attention from primarily women to get a wife but then is also used as a serpentine cudgel to emasculated the church and the alpha leaders and to turn the churches into beta-male and/or matriarchal run communities. My evidence is prima fascia, just look, amy man that goes to a modern worship church and approves of that and thinks it is a serious approach to the Triune God is a weak and emasculated man that has no sense of dominion over himself or his domainAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-44534150986220920232023-11-19T04:45:27.695-08:002023-11-19T04:45:27.695-08:00The problem isn't the instruments themselves n...The problem isn't the instruments themselves necessarily. It's the nature of the music, being a show, with the dummy men getting up their to get attention to get women. Let them have their guitar. Put them in the back or down where they can't be seen, turn their mic down, and make them play harmonizing chords as opposed to strumming like Springstein and see how quick a churches tenor and vibe changes (like a switch). Don't let their arguments about you being a pharisee have merit, give them the guitar and put them out of sight. Also. Don't gave worship leaders that stand before you and above you, put them out of sight and have the congregation all face and give attention to the Triune God, and don't let some dummy worship leader sap and of the exhaustion. I'll never worship another man/worship leader again, because that's basically what that is, you are basically worshipping them. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-25748112930828460802021-10-10T09:03:36.042-07:002021-10-10T09:03:36.042-07:00Couldn’t agree more . You left out that it’s the ...Couldn’t agree more . You left out that it’s the charismania. There isn’t a church it hasn’t infected in some way. But we all accepted jeans also. Now look, they come in pajamas. It’s disgraceful. But nothing is anymore is it?Felonioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03580829406550192099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-79310360908507397422021-03-07T21:06:09.817-08:002021-03-07T21:06:09.817-08:00In light of the musical forms or styles I should p...In light of the musical forms or styles I should point out this is a very America-centric discussion. The church in the developing world doesn't have this same discussion exactly. The west exports all kinds of things, good, bad, and ugly things. Musical style is simply one issue. Like exporting KJV English to non-English speakers, western musical styles from hymns, pipe organs to electric guitars, drums, and auto-tune are irrational for many African churches to adopt or reject based on any biblical argument. It is also difficult to discuss quality when comparing church music we experienced in our youth to modern music produced in Nashville. This is mostly because hymns are, by design easy to execute and fit the older acoustical environments. Modern Nashville tunes are surgically produced and sometimes difficult to replicate compared to the hymn that has no recording comparison. I can't say which is "better", other than to say one has historical safety but relevant risk. Remember your hymnal is the hits of the past, the poor or slightly suspect writing didn't make the book. From a musical historical perspective the age of hymn writing is dead. This doesn't mean the tunes are left in the dust but only the best will carry on. We also don't sing many tunes before the prolific hymn era do we? Do we sing any 12th century songs? Perhaps some carols. How many are there? Many who advocate hymns and organs exit the church parking lot listening to... Phillips Craig and Dean, or Chris Tomlin. This can make the church corporate worship a strange esoteric place with old esoteric music. I prefer the hits of every decade.Jacksoniannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-50559223425831456882018-05-31T08:02:06.931-07:002018-05-31T08:02:06.931-07:00Dear brother RC, please read this article. You are...Dear brother RC, please read this article. You are not alone. Your sense is not without a reason. The Holy spirit has put that burden on your heart. Our younger generations are being destroyed by rock music. There is nothing angelical about rock music. It came from the world, it's for the flesh, not from God's spirit. Pastor Gordon Sears warned “When the standard of music is lowered, then the standard of dress is also lowered. When the standard of dress is lowered, then the standard of conduct is also lowered. When the standard of conduct is lowered, then the sense of value in God’s truth is lowered.”<br /><br />https://www.wayoflife.org/reports/contemporary_music_brings_great_changes.htmlSherrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-38996358690153565102018-02-24T11:53:07.012-08:002018-02-24T11:53:07.012-08:00Guitars, Drums, and more are all fine.
What it r...Guitars, Drums, and more are all fine. <br /> What it really comes down to is using musicians in the service of the Lord who aren't even believers. <br /> What it comes down to is Pastors who listens to secular music during the week days but want's Church music on Sundays. <br /> Pick and choose people, pick and choose. <br /> Are you for Christ or against Christ? <br /> If you are for him, then forsake all worldly music choosing your music off of Phil 4:6-9. If you are against Christ yet want people to think you are for him, keep on taring the Church down from the inside out. The choice is yours. But remember this, as a leader in the Church, the blood of the people are on your hands. For those of you reading this, my comment isn't directed at anybody here. Just my thoughts as to this sad tragedy we have going on in the Church and a call to wake up. <br /> https://www.learnthebible.org/music-in-the-new-testament-church.html <br /> vary interesting read. This doesn't go back to a Worship war, it goes back to write and wrong. Choose wisely.<br />In Christ's Service <br /> TimothyBrother Timothy Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03173314252598243106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-82611763095493972252017-01-22T13:25:44.255-08:002017-01-22T13:25:44.255-08:00A guitar and drums is fine if it's amazing gra...A guitar and drums is fine if it's amazing grace there playing. There was a time when amazing grace was considered contemporary. People need to get off their holy high horses and realize times have changed. Not the Gospel but the way it's presented. The reason their are so many dieing church's is because of this kind of attitude. There is this thing called grace that has gotten lost in legalistic thinking. I'm thankful to be willing to reach the lost by any means. It's not compromise it's called compassionAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05101034834556650053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-71672542026391738012017-01-22T13:25:11.331-08:002017-01-22T13:25:11.331-08:00A guitar and drums is fine if it's amazing gra...A guitar and drums is fine if it's amazing grace there playing. There was a time when amazing grace was considered contemporary. People need to get off their holy high horses and realize times have changed. Not the Gospel but the way it's presented. The reason their are so many dieing church's is because of this kind of attitude. There is this thing called grace that has gotten lost in legalistic thinking. I'm thankful to be willing to reach the lost by any means. It's not compromise it's called compassionAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05101034834556650053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-58753829275820536342014-11-04T07:31:14.743-08:002014-11-04T07:31:14.743-08:00Dennis, My name is Michael Shuman and I am Dr. R.C...Dennis, My name is Michael Shuman and I am Dr. R.C. Sproul Jr.'s assistant. I am writing in reference to the email you sent recently to him. <br /><br />Please email me at cmshuman@reformationbiblecollege.org in order for your request to be properly considered.Authorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14307955982280057159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-91574882563471357332014-11-04T03:34:04.142-08:002014-11-04T03:34:04.142-08:00Dr. Sproul, Is it possible to contact you offline?...Dr. Sproul, Is it possible to contact you offline? Off Blog? If so, How? DennisAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07553129731319906144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-46961333361366334002014-09-04T11:57:42.699-07:002014-09-04T11:57:42.699-07:00RC, I have trouble finding a church because the so...RC, I have trouble finding a church because the sound systems are painfully loud such that my ears ring for days after. Lyrics are often inan, "there is a fountain who is our God" is my all time favorite bad lyrics next to "breath, breath, breath, breath, breath, breath, breath, breath, breeeeeeeeeeeeeeaath." I don't understand the lack of talent and diversity in the Christian church's music publication. Me-centered songs drive me nuts. I like electric guitar but it has become "the new organ," mandetory generic and loud sound in ever church I set foot in. I no longer feel my spirit lift in praise by these services. Sometimes bored and yawning, other annoyed, the best lyrics were played to nightclub venue beat and at the tinninitus volume. I don't want to lose my hearing because i regularly on a weekly basis attend a rock and roll concert. Rock isn't even my favorite venue and I listen to it occasionally but weekly, blah. I don't know what will happen... It may never change. But i will attend a Sunday School or small group for now and listen to a sermon online because even though I was a teen in the 80's, I'm not into monotinous boring often either poorly written or poorly composed tunes. I wish and pray for change. If you listen to any secular music in various venues, there is new amazing talent and songs you want to hear again. Oatmeal without sweetener or cream is how i feel about this mostly garbage loud rock they're blasting now, put a real rocker to shame with it. :-(<br /><br />I'm not saying you said what I said so hope no one gets mad at you that i posted that.<br />:-) Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-86131587562564294252014-09-04T08:05:53.540-07:002014-09-04T08:05:53.540-07:00When it sounds like a downtown nightclub, but with...When it sounds like a downtown nightclub, but with Christian lyrics, seriously, the message can get lost in the beat and the music carries a different meaning thatn the words. Try singing lyrics of another song to happy birthday tune or some other annoying childhood favorite like the farmer in the dell, and you quickly see what I mean. I enjoy alternative music but to sound right often requires it be played loud, and inexperienced sound crew blast much louder than needed. Why do i need to lose my hearing from weekly church services? (I'm still young, but i don't go to rock concert weekly). And why is there no diversity in style, and so much inane repetition? Anyway, play the music alone without the people singing...that is another way to recognize the message in the music. It's the typical pop themes alternative hit night club dance tune. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-14886263173832819102012-10-20T13:05:54.152-07:002012-10-20T13:05:54.152-07:00Paul,
Thanks for stopping by and for your thoughtf...Paul,<br />Thanks for stopping by and for your thoughtful comments. That said, am unsure where you read me saying anything at all about lyrics in this piece. And it is certainly true that the born on date isn't the issue. By "contemporary" I did not mean "written within these years..." but a particular style of music, which is granted hard to define. But we know it when we hear it, don't we? In the same way that I know what I call a "prairie hymn" when I hear it, even if I've never heard the song before. There is a sound. In fact I have argued that prairie hymns are the praise choruses of the mid 1800's.R.C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13976580613129096869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-44366283532126854262012-10-19T15:52:01.305-07:002012-10-19T15:52:01.305-07:00I found this somewhat by accident.
With respect, ...I found this somewhat by accident.<br /><br />With respect, I would argue that there is a straw man of contemporary worship being set up. That is, that contemporary music necessitates shallow lyrics. That is simply not true.<br /><br />There's another straw man implied - that traditional hymns are, by nature, deep or less shallow. That is also simply not true. Regardless of style, the lyrics must be looked at and evaluated; just because it's 100-500 years old or 2 years old is, frankly, not important with respect to the worth of the lyrics. I can find a shallow song (or theologically incorrect, for that matter!) from 150 years ago, too.<br /><br />So, we're left with what? That we have to evaluate the lyrics regardless of age or style.<br /><br />As to the music itself, I'm interested in knowing, from a *biblical* perspective, what in contemporary music are issues.<br /><br />I would also welcome an explanation as to what, exactly, style "traditional" music is? I have found there to be two distinct influences; classical (the older "German chorale" type) and folk (more 19th century and 20th century songs; for example, Fanny Crosby's era). Contemporary music, largely, is influenced by folk music of various forms.<br /><br />Arguing biblically about music styles (which boils down to music theory, mostly) is difficult. We can argue about the *performance* and the non-participatory stuff, but there again, we're not arguing about style as a whole but how those styles work. For every person one may find that says "I just can't sing the contemporary melodies, they are too syncopated" I could probably find someone who says "I just can't sing the old melodies, they don't make sense and seem so boring!" In other words ... familiarity is a *big* issue. But that's not, to my knowledge, a biblical reason for rejecting a music style... :)Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14414516713611032858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-56930664776603470182012-10-04T05:47:16.722-07:002012-10-04T05:47:16.722-07:00Regarding, "Some of those like me who don'...Regarding, "Some of those like me who don't think praise choruses are fitting for worship instead grumble about the drums and guitars. That's an argument they will always lose. Some, in defending praise choruses defend the instruments. My point is that that's not the point."<br /><br />R.C. ... If you we're at the beginning of the "war" and new what you know now... What would your strategy be to make your case for your beliefs? And, do you think it would have made any difference had you presented your arguments more effectively? Thanks. And I appreciate the posts.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02334090605680528805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-83820265436196577372012-08-15T01:13:05.355-07:002012-08-15T01:13:05.355-07:00Aaron from what I understand about this passage is...Aaron from what I understand about this passage is that it was part of a civic ceremony not a religious worship service and this didn't actually happen in the Temple itself. If we compare scripture with scripture we see that David certainly didn't lack any reverence to God (I'm comparing this with the Pslams!) and so I'd feel uncomfortable plucking 2 Samuel 6 our of thin air to try and argue anything about reverence and what is edifying in worship, especially as this particular event didn't happen in the house of God.<br /><br />Like I said Dr Peter Masters is well worth a listen to on this subject and has also wrote a book Worship in the Melting Pot which has very clear arguments in - much MUCH better than anything you read from me!<br /><br />Hope that makes sense, sorry if it's jumbled!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-38074743934146382782012-08-14T14:26:41.015-07:002012-08-14T14:26:41.015-07:00"asking if it's reverent and edifying for..."asking if it's reverent and edifying for use in church worship"<br /><br />Is 2 Samuel 6:14 an example of reverent and edifying? Is it appropriate activity when worshiping God? (We remember verse 20 - 22 as well!)<br /><br />AaronDartmehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16990540566678643436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-62992532906259668832012-08-14T14:18:55.787-07:002012-08-14T14:18:55.787-07:00The Bible tells us that when we are saved we are t...The Bible tells us that when we are saved we are to be separate from this world.<br />Before I was saved I was a huge fan of Britney Spears and paid a lot of money to see her gigs and used to go to a whole host of rock festivals. What sort of culture was I embracing? At the gigs people were drunk, smoking, using foul language, girls dressed immodestly and the such like. Why would we want any resemblence of this music in our churches?<br /><br />With CCM there is a lot of talk about people's 'tastes'. Well, when the Lord in His mercy saved me he did a mighty work in my life so that my tastes DID change. Our tastes should change when we are saved and we shouldn't crave after what this world enjoys so much. It's not about the style of music, it's looking at the way the world uses it and asking if it's reverent and edifying for use in church worship.<br /><br />The problem today in the church is that man takes his ideas and makes scripture fit around them, rather than looking to scripture first and seeing what is holy and pleasing to the Lord. Another problem is that churches lack faith. They don't believe that the gospel is enough and that simply preaching the word faithfully each week won't bring the numbers in. And so they employ worldly methods of entertainment to bring people in. Look at Christian bands, they look no different than worldly bands despite maybe having more reverent lyrics! Someone commented earlier about Lincoln Brewster so i took time to check out his website and this is what I found..<br />http://www.lincolnbrewster.com/<br /><br />There's no separation from the world here in the way he dresses or in the way the website is made to look. This is so sad. The same person who commented also said about idolatry...well on Lincoln's website there are pictures of him performing on stage with people going crazy for his music in the audience. He is tempting people to make an idol of him by putting himself at the center of the stage and by doing so he is pushing Christ to the wings. Surely in church Christ should be the very center of our worship. <br /><br />The Bible (including Paul) do give a standard on how to conduct biblical worship and all churches fall short whatever method of worship they adopt because we live in a world that is polluted by sin. <br /><br />These are just my small thoughts, Dr Peter Masters has a much clearer argument that is well worth a listen to. Two address from Metropolitan Tabernacle's School of Theology conference in London..<br />http://www.metropolitantabernacle.org/MT/sermons/SoT2012/PM02.mp3Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-88047524820483679782012-08-09T07:23:04.863-07:002012-08-09T07:23:04.863-07:00Well, I would suggest there is rather much more to...Well, I would suggest there is rather much more to avoiding being shallow, insipid and easily played than singing the Psalms and singing judgment. There are important musical elements as well. Not which instruments per se, of course, but musical issues nonetheless.R.C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13976580613129096869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-1537197511125852352012-08-09T06:48:49.125-07:002012-08-09T06:48:49.125-07:00Sorry, OpenID sucked up my name.
"... worshi...Sorry, OpenID sucked up my name.<br /><br />"... worship bands have left the Psalms, organ, and our father's hymnal decimated."<br /><br />So the problem here is not that the organ and our father's hymnal are decimated, but that they were decimated by "shallow, insipid, easily played, safe,...", right?<br /><br />So, the band that is not prey of these things (they sing about judgment as much or more than about God's love) and also sings psalms among other things have approval?<br /><br />Thank for your time and responses, they are valuable to me!<br /><br />Aaron LawsDartmehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16990540566678643436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-26439074158797816422012-08-07T12:08:24.701-07:002012-08-07T12:08:24.701-07:00The problem sister is that we equivocate on "...The problem sister is that we equivocate on "drums and guitars." Insofar as drums and guitars is short hand for that style of music we also call praise choruses my concern is that such music is inane, insipid, safe, simplistic, lame. The problem then isn't actually the drums or the guitars. Some of those like me who don't think praise choruses are fitting for worship instead grumble about the drums and guitars. That's an argument they will always lose. Some, in defending praise choruses defend the instruments. My point is that that's not the point. Hope that helps.R.C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13976580613129096869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-59167713060411147272012-08-07T11:50:06.134-07:002012-08-07T11:50:06.134-07:00"My objection to drums and guitars is not tha..."My objection to drums and guitars is not that they are drums and guitars."<br /><br />What is your objection to drums and guitars then?<br /><br />You have said that you have no argument against them ("I did not anywhere condemn the use of drums of guitars. Not once."), but the quote above suggests the opposite.Dartmehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16990540566678643436noreply@blogger.com