tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post5718115051165148316..comments2024-01-01T13:55:05.686-08:00Comments on RC Sproul Jr: Ask RC: We can’t find a family integrated church, what should we do?RC Sproul Jr.http://www.blogger.com/profile/10021618819499117817noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-3768860815213220662019-06-12T14:43:07.433-07:002019-06-12T14:43:07.433-07:00Exactly. Exactly. Tami mommy of Tenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10869640915832189646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-57000977192166043022019-06-12T14:42:31.758-07:002019-06-12T14:42:31.758-07:00Wrong, wrong, wrong...
You are making tons of fals...Wrong, wrong, wrong...<br />You are making tons of false presumptions.Tami mommy of Tenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10869640915832189646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-66374075431530852502019-06-12T13:20:55.695-07:002019-06-12T13:20:55.695-07:00Your church sounds great!Your church sounds great!Tami mommy of Tenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10869640915832189646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-19939728679969092782019-06-12T13:14:45.599-07:002019-06-12T13:14:45.599-07:00Yes, yes, yes.Yes, yes, yes.Tami mommy of Tenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10869640915832189646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-18880335742917605332019-06-12T13:13:11.680-07:002019-06-12T13:13:11.680-07:00I know of at least three, those are only the ones ...I know of at least three, those are only the ones we have been to. Who knows how many more. We walked out.Tami mommy of Tenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10869640915832189646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-69473253768056659692019-06-12T13:10:52.994-07:002019-06-12T13:10:52.994-07:00Yes, those exist and there are way more out there!...Yes, those exist and there are way more out there! We have had similar experience.Tami mommy of Tenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10869640915832189646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-13519034712841037802014-09-13T10:23:32.429-07:002014-09-13T10:23:32.429-07:00When we first were saved, we attended a church wit...When we first were saved, we attended a church with a kid's program. My preschooler did not want to be separated from us in the children's program, so he came with us to service. As we grew in God's Word, we felt more and more convicted about having our children with us in church, so I pulled out my younger children from the nursery. <br /><br />At first, it wasn't a big issue, but when others began to do the same thing, I think the youth pastor found it threatening to his position. One family was made so uncomfortable that they left. I was publicly berated by the pastor's wife one day when I sat outside the service with a misbehaving child. On other occasions, the youth ministers would try to entice my children into the Kids' Church, speaking directly to them and not to me. One of my friends was publicly humiliated by an older woman who told her that her children didn't belong. <br /><br />After a year, all of my children were fully trained to sit quietly in church with no disruptions -- and I was pregnant with my fourth. Many other families were at various stages of training their children. It does take time, particularly with new babies being born and new toddlers needing training just as the preschoolers are finally getting it!<br /><br />Finally, we left the church. The last time we visited, they had a sign up in the service that said that children were only welcome until after the worship music was over.<br /><br />I wish we had some family-integrated churches in our area, because this really does become a big issue.<br /><br />One of my friends was even berated by a friend of the youth pastor's, saying that her family's stance was affecting his ability to make a living! Like supporting his livelihood is a good reason to give our responsibility to our children over to others.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-9733632617476898432014-08-21T10:32:10.672-07:002014-08-21T10:32:10.672-07:00We the church, including the leadership and congre...We the church, including the leadership and congregation, need to remember that our main focus is God and His Word, not ourselves.Dalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03833582035707138564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-67980969947661732432014-04-27T22:47:15.619-07:002014-04-27T22:47:15.619-07:00Hi I know these posts are old but I just wanted le...Hi I know these posts are old but I just wanted let you know there is a group promoting FIC In Australia it's a yahoo group called "Australian Biblical Families and church" Would love to get in contact with Anonymous to find out about that FIC Churchclanmc61https://www.blogger.com/profile/11614978469370973792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-74913577707342803902013-08-22T03:10:09.276-07:002013-08-22T03:10:09.276-07:00People get asked to leave for not putting children...People get asked to leave for not putting children in Sunday School because the whole structure is about conformity and control control structures. But not conformity to Christ or godliness! <br /><br />How many churches dis-fellowship people for sin anymore?nochurchomenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-7012400794294840972013-07-19T07:17:31.925-07:002013-07-19T07:17:31.925-07:00Great article, RC. I greatly appreciate your empha...Great article, RC. I greatly appreciate your emphasis upon the gospel!Eric Burdnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-90338799937780470112013-04-04T06:24:58.664-07:002013-04-04T06:24:58.664-07:00Very helpful article and discussion! I literally ...Very helpful article and discussion! I literally just learned what a family integrated church is a couple months ago and it has left me hungry and seeking but instead of bailing on the church family we have known for 7 years I am being proactive to help our pastor and leadership question if there are ways that we can become more family integrated. I am very thankful for the openness they have shown. Keeping the children in for worship is a good first step and now I am helping to create a program (not all programs are bad) that is focused on equipping parents to take the lead of the discipleship of their children in the home. I believe that if the leadership support and teach this focus that it will transform our local church from the inside out. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16185316387506896247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-61002084393093020022012-08-30T11:40:46.362-07:002012-08-30T11:40:46.362-07:00The Church is the Bride of Christ. She is the age...The Church is the Bride of Christ. She is the agent by which God entrusts His dearest treasure, the life giving message of His Son. True, the Bride may have muddied herself, but the dirt doesn't make her any less the Bride. As believers in Jesus Christ, we, note WE are still His body. Therefore, rather than abandon the church, have we tried to work through the issues? <br /><br />Many leaving their comments thus far have mentioned their experiences. Our experiences do not mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater. And we cannot assume our experience is the case for every church. We are part of a local body of believers not only to disciple and evangelize but also to conform us into the image of Christ. This polished image requires sanding, conflicts with one another where we learn to submit to one another rather than run away from the situation. Be part of the solution in the church rather than assuming we are too good for it. Our desire for control can cause us to resist the spiritual leaders over us. There can be no accountability if we simply roam from one church to another whenever we decide we don't like something. <br /><br />If we surround ourselves with only those who agree with us,then we begin to believe false assumptions. Our beliefs are never tested or challenged. We become 'bubble' Christians. That said, we do need to agree wholeheartedly with the doctrinal statement of the church we attend. I am not referring to that, but rather to the secondaries, such as style, programs, and flavor of people. <br /><br />Lastly, I will join the ranks of those who have shared their experiences and present my perspective. As a youth pastor's wife I have a discipleship ministry with young women, training them in godliness through Bible study. My biggest frustration is when the parents do not support the program. How can we come along side and help the teens if the parents refuse to let them participate? Mind you, the absences are often due to sports, band, drama, and even the obtaining of high grades. We worship activity and education. These extracurricular activities are religiously kept, but church is the last priority. And we wonder why our kids deem church as unimportant. If it is enjoyable and a priority to the parents the kids will follow suit. <br /><br />I realize the argument that many purposely avoid being overly committed in order to have a home life that is sane. As a parent of two teenagers plus younger ones, I understand. But rather than fuss and fume about the programs of the church which from our perspective may divide families, (in actuality it might not be the case at all), why not go through the proper authority structure and present a solution rather than a complaint? Do some research and find out why the church has established certain expectations. There is usually a valid reason for what they are doing. In my case I asked my leaders to combine their Awana night with their middle school youth group night so that families could have an extra night at home. And they readily heeded the suggestion! Very peacefully they made the change. <br /><br />However, I've learned that when the church frees up more nights for families to be together, most families do not use the free night for family, but rather fill it with some other activity. Our enemy is not the church. God forbid! The enemy is our own pride, the love affair we maintain with our idols, and the culture which WE have created. We must search our own hearts. How can we be salt and light in the world if we are isolating ourselves or fighting one another? All I can say is, Christ loves the Church and gave Himself up for her. Maybe we should do the same.Jewelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07010217137148949596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-88040939178442396652012-06-13T07:35:53.898-07:002012-06-13T07:35:53.898-07:00Thank you RC for this post. I am a pastor of a sma...Thank you RC for this post. I am a pastor of a small church that is seeking to become more family integrated in our worship and I am so surprised that families will not be a part of our "institutional church" to come and help in the restoring of the family. We have been bringing kids in to join our worship and I have very few members that will help encourage families to stay together. All those with these bad experiences, I am sorry to hear. Go to the leaders and tell them. But dont bail on the local church. Thanks again for posting thisStewarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02353519748929206139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-46940205222766362302012-06-11T13:40:26.323-07:002012-06-11T13:40:26.323-07:00Wow, I am praising God after reading these comment...Wow, I am praising God after reading these comments, that I have the church and the pastor that I have. We have several families, including my own, whose quivers are full, so to speak. Several families homeschool, including ours and the pastor's family. Perhaps that our congregation has only been around for a few years means that there hasn't been enough time to develop complacency-laden programs for people to get upset about. We're also situated in a community that's very heavily populated by military personnel. So there's always a constant revolving door of people coming and going. So a lot of the bickering or cliques, if there ever are any, don't really have a chance to get a foothold.<br /><br />I found myself pretty upset that there are churches who would escort someone from the property if they refused to put their kids in Sunday school. Apparently, so many people have forgotten that church was never designed to be EXclusive, but rather, INclusive. That someone would be treated this way is a sure sign, if there ever was one, to find (or start) another church.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08700321023649464402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-32195903615851536662012-05-22T16:23:25.889-07:002012-05-22T16:23:25.889-07:00I just wanted to say that in a small town we don&#...I just wanted to say that in a small town we don't have a lot of options. One local church booted members for not putting their children in youth. They were considered divisive. We raised many eyebrows in the church by taking our children to adult sunday school instead of shipping them off as well. We might have stayed had the church board (*not* elders) had such a high degree of tolerance for a professing and very vocal preterist in it's midst. We are very short on options! We now drive an hour to a home church with about 11 families and 2 elders. I would call it Family Integrated, homeschool friendly, and pretty solid theologically compared to what we've seen and experienced. I wish we had a closer option, but we don't. It can be very disheartening. We're okay with being black sheep, as long as we aren't being back stabbed by the elders and leaders.(It happens) The controversy and heartache aren't worth it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-19296869066495823922012-05-21T23:30:16.810-07:002012-05-21T23:30:16.810-07:00R.C.,Thank you for writing back. I falsely assume...R.C.,Thank you for writing back. I falsely assumed you were in a family integrated church. I was confused because you were one of the first introductions for us into F.I a couple of years ago. someone was telling us all about your stance on the family. and we read the book training up a child thereafter, that really encouraged us! we had come to many of those conclusions ourselves but had no idea F.I. existed. so that is where my assumption was that you were in one. i have OFTEN ironically, been envious imagining you all having that kind of church and support and thinking how alone we felt in the churches we have attended. so interesting that is not the case. i have imagined the persecuted in prison with no church. i do know it is not always possible to be in a F.I. church. my sister is bed bound and can not attend any church at this time. my health problems is the reason we need F.I. even more, i'm very isolated. i can't run around crazy busy in the typical local church. i'm just not able, but even if i were well, i wouldn't want that. so i really look forward to sundays and i want us to be together as a family. i'm very careful to not elevate it too much, most people have never even heard of it . what prompted me to write today, it still doesn't mean it's not better even if there is not one. and the youth teachers good intentions really got me. good intentions can be very dangerous if not guided by true wisdom. i'm so deeply saddened that F.I is so few. that we are just consumers in every way. that the family is so divided. and b.t.w. i've run into some not -so- great f.i. churches, i know people are not perfect, i know how deeply flawed i am, one of the worst for sure why i need family in the church oh so desperately! i did honestly raise the concern today from this article, wondering where the church will be if we continue to neglect the family, the headship of the husband etc, the role of the woman etc. the family is hurting so much in this culture. i want a better life for my son, not in the American way where he has a bigger house, a better job.i want him to have way more of Jesus than i did!!!! people travel for vacations, jobs, ball games etc. i think traveling for a better church is the best choice if possible. that was the answer we came up with after much prayer, when we can't find a local F.I. church. are we more Holy, no, are we more encouraged , Yes. are we a happier family, yes! just a good option to throw out there. it's that important to us. our best friends travel 2 1/2 hours for a F.I. church with 6 children, we thought they were CRAZY!!!!! we soon realized why they did it. and people think we are crazy now that we drive, not that far but still far. it's worth it, it really is. i pray this is for God's glory this long winded response!karen hortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15914628208338360971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-67022700412010407742012-05-21T13:22:10.437-07:002012-05-21T13:22:10.437-07:00Karen,
I'm sorry you found this piece discoura...Karen,<br />I'm sorry you found this piece discouraging. I suppose I would to, if I had said what somehow you think I said. First, I'm not unsympathetic. I have been in a non-family integrated church for over two years now. Our family, however, remains a family integrated family. We are such because I believe in family integration. My piece was not designed in the least as an attack on family integrated churches. I spoke at the first two Uniting Church and Home Conferences. I am interviewed in Divided. I am close friends with Scott Brown. In short, I'm on your side. What concerns me is when people like us elevate fic to such a high position that they end up in otherwise awful churches, or worse, become lone rangers. (I also have no quarrel with churches that meet in homes. I'm preached in such churches before. My beef is with churches made up of unaccountable men, or non-churches disguised as churches.) Oh, and I love Voddie's book, and Voddie as well. In short, the question I answered was not, "Should I be in a family integrated church or not." My question that I was answering was, "What do I do if I can't find one near where I am?" Hope that clears things up, and thank you for graciously raising your concern.R.C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13976580613129096869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-86592220325122770342012-05-21T10:58:19.974-07:002012-05-21T10:58:19.974-07:00i found this article to be discouraging. it's ...i found this article to be discouraging. it's possibly easier said than done to just go to the nearest local church since you are not in that situation. it's a much bigger issue than made here. i have found that those in the Family Integrated take it for granted what a blessing it is. we have been without it for years, we've not had any local F.I churches where we live. we have suffered much in the regular busy churches......where reformed teaching is taught but it's taught more antinomian and emergent. there is a coldness and a deadness to these churches. women walk around almost naked and we are constantly asked why we don't do sunday school and all the programs. we are pretty much invisible and alone. we had to finally go to a mega church because the small churches would pretty much ask you to leave if you did not participate. one preacher said we would be too different for their church. i know F.I. churches are so picked on that maybe y'all feel lead to put it down but it really is the best. and it's o.k. to say that. we don't have to be politically correct or relative here. We can stand on Godly wisdom!!!!! when we travel to visit F.I. churches it's always way better than where we attend so much so the last few months we decided it was better to travel to attend where our conscience is free. we have been so much happier and fulfilled!!!!!! we are way more encouraged!!!!!! we only have one child, due to health reasons, so our child really needs to have other children who are being raised like him and heck we need need it. it's not an easy world to survive in alone. we weren't made to be alone! i don't see how this is an issue of repenting at all. i see it that clearly F.I is better and we do not need to apologize for it. and one more thing, home churches can have pastors and elders too. we are not catholic and have to attend a big building. i was disappointed in this advice. you have such power and influence.....while youth groups or sunday school have good intentions , i clearly agree with that statement.... the issue is what is right, what is the best maximum thing to do for one's family. i think Voddie's new book Family Shepard was so excellent!!!! 80-90% of children are leaving the faith.......that says a lot. the current system of church is not working, in fact it is failing. it is not what God intended for the church and we are seeing the fruit of that. even if i disagree with you we are big R.c jr. sproul fans and pray for you often!!!! blessings<br /><br />Karen hortonkaren hortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15914628208338360971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-69200780839019224982012-05-18T21:28:35.137-07:002012-05-18T21:28:35.137-07:00Back in 1976 my parents moved to a medium sized to...Back in 1976 my parents moved to a medium sized town in Northern Ohio where there was no Wisconsin Synod church, so they started a homechurch in our home. It was fairly easy, from my point of view. The pastor of the closest church (in Maumee) agreed to come after his regular Sunday service to preach to the half dozen families who met with us. It was a great lesson for me and my siblings as to the importance of one's theology (ultimately I got born again and forsook Lutheran theology.Sandrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15289212347926145247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-13062217098925948012012-05-15T11:29:33.147-07:002012-05-15T11:29:33.147-07:00As far as the youth pastor "not secretly tryi...As far as the youth pastor "not secretly trying to seduce your child to the dark side," I know of at least two youth pastors sitting in jail for child molestation and another one would be there too if he had not committed suicide while the police were enroute to arrest him. Yes, there are youth pastors trying to seduce your children to the dark side, and I find no mention of a youth pastor in Scripture.<br /><br />VickyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-65410640209079640852012-05-14T21:30:26.895-07:002012-05-14T21:30:26.895-07:00George, I can relate with your post. In Nov. 2007 ...George, I can relate with your post. In Nov. 2007 I was happy to be living the life of a sinner. But on the 14th of that month the Lord reveled Himself to me. From that day forward I have been a very different man! I never attended church before or understood even the most basic things of religion. On that night of salvation I had an insatiable hunger for God's truth. I have come to find 98% of most church building attendees don't care about these very things you are talking about. And if you do bring anything up, you to end up the odd man out! Is this how you feel George? I want to find fellowship and fear putting my family I into most of these church buildings!Darrellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-21319435366407918262012-05-14T16:52:45.827-07:002012-05-14T16:52:45.827-07:00I have a question regarding what makes a primary i...I have a question regarding what makes a primary issue and a secondary issue. I am part of an independent fundamental baptist church which seems to be the closest doctrinally to my understanding of the scriptures. However, I am finding it very difficult to make disciples when homeschooling and any type of family integration is undermined from the leadership of the church. Some other choices of churches in my area include UMC churches with female pastors, Roman Catholic, and health and wealth pentecostal. Is there ever a time when you start from your own house apart from other churches and begin a new work with another family rather than being part of a church that you are at odds with?<br />Regarding primary and secondary issues: Is the sufficiency of scripture a primary or secondary issue? If someone holds to the sufficiency of scripture but comes to a different conclusion than me with a reasonable argument from the scriptures then I believe I could be in fellowship with them at a church. However,most of the time I have found that the sufficiency of scripture is a doctrine of convenience. For example,it is believed for tithing but not for male headship. Where are you drawing the line for where your family can worship? Are you suggesting that families stay at churches where they are not going to be able to make disciples of Christ because they are dishonored on a regular basis? I would like some wisdom on this issue because I think about it on a daily basis.Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-13432348694295963392012-05-14T13:26:43.340-07:002012-05-14T13:26:43.340-07:00Thanks for this post. My husband and Steve Fuente...Thanks for this post. My husband and Steve Fuentes, along with their families, just planted a FIC last fall. Before that, our family attended traditional mega churches for 22 years--but we still were able to practice family integration while there. I will say it was not always understood and we were excluded from ministry at times because we weren't mainstream enough, but we were allowed to worship together and for that we were grateful. It is so important to be part of the body of Christ wherever God has you and be under the teaching of the Word, even if it's not ideally the kind of setting you would wish for. I'm so thankful for the importance my husband placed on being involved and connected to a local body of believers.<br />Blessings & Prayers,<br />Rhonda for the Devine familyRhonda Devinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11030131207177257358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8916923606431957884.post-62030538909745402992012-05-14T13:06:55.494-07:002012-05-14T13:06:55.494-07:00I can speak from experience after spending three y...I can speak from experience after spending three years on staff and serving in several ministries over the years. Our old church made the point of sending elders and/or deacons into the sanctuary to ask parents to remove their children from the service and put them in Sunday School or nursery. Also, when we moved to another state and our children were 10 and 13 they asked if they could sit with us in the service we said yes. After a few months we were accused of being divisive by not doing what all the other parents were doing and sending their children to Sunday School. Finally, I grew up as a Mormon and I can say first hand that we were taught to identify ourselves as Christian because it did give more legitimacy to our religion. Yet, the LDS church teaches a different gospel, a different christ, and a false view of heaven and salvation. I spent many, many years in the church and praise the Lord for His grace in saving me from that cult and forgiving me. Praise the Lord! We now attend a family integrated church but I will say that if you homeschool many, many churches go out of their way to attack those who are different in their family life from other Christians. There is a tendency among pastors to believe other pastors when it comes to condemning the practices of homeschoolers. I can totally understand why the puritans left England for America. Sometimes the attacks within the church against fellow believers is too much for any one family to endure. Granted the Puritans had to deal with a state who subjected them to prison but the jail sentence in some churches for homeschoolers who desire to attend church as a family can be quite cruel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com