The beginning of that Word from God always looked back rather than forward. That is, the prophet served as a kind of lawyer bringing suit for failure to keep covenant. Thus the beginning of the message was “You agreed to this covenant. You said you would honor it.” It moved from this glance backward to an assessment of the present, “You are not keeping the covenant. You are breaking this provision and that one.” Finally, the prophet gives this typically general vision of the future, that God had revealed, “If you don’t repent, judgment will come. If you do repent, God will spare you and bless you.”
Because God spoke directly to the prophet in the Old Covenant, there certainly could be greater specificity to the prediction: your descendants will be slaves in Egypt for 400 years; the son of your adultery will die; the Assyrians are going to wipe the floor with you; you will return from exile; a prophet greater than Moses will come. This was God’s message, and either implicitly or explicitly it always carried the notion of forgiveness for repentance and judgment for failure to repent.
Does God still speak this way? Yes, and no. No, because we have the complete Word of God. Yes, because the Word of God is God speaking in this way. We do not have new prophetic messages, but we do have the prophetic message. It is complete, and speaks with all the thundering glory, all the refulgent promise of the prophets of old. As individuals, as families, as churches, as nations the message is the same- if we repent God will bless. If we do not, God will judge.
Prophets in our day then do not receive new revelation from God. They do, however, continue to proclaim the Word of God. Husbands prophesy to their wives when they wash them with the water of the Word (Ephesians 5:26). Parents prophesy to their children when they speak to their children of the things of God when they lie down and when they rise up and when they walk by the way (Deuteronomy 6:4-9). Churches prophesy to the world when they proclaim the faith once delivered (I Corinthians 11:4-5).
It is important that we affirm the overlap between Old Testament prophecy and prophecy in our own day. In both instances God’s Word is being proclaimed. In both instances God’s people are called to repentance. It is important also to note the differences. God spoke directly to the prophets of old. Now, His Word is complete. Those who claim to hear directly from God now besmirch the fullness of the Word, and mislead the people of God. On the other hand, those who refuse to speak His Word besmirch the power of the Word, and fail to lead His people. Speak. His Word.
47 comments:
SO WRONG. GOD IS THE SAME YESTERDAY, AND TODAY. HE CONTINUES TO REVEAL HIS WORD TODAY TO LIVING PROPHETS. AS PROMISED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. "AND HE GAVE SOME APOSTLES AND PROPHETS, UNTIL WE ALL COME TO A UNITY OF FAITH"
SO WRONG. THE LORD STILL GIVES REVELATION TO LIVING APOSTLES AND PROPHETS TODAY, AS PROMISED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. "AND HE GAVE SOME APOSTLES AND PROPHETS....UNTIL WE ALL COME TO A UNITY OF THE FAITH...."
The notion that prophecy ended with the completion of the New Testament is a fabrication and is not stated anywhere in the New Testament, though some read such into the "that which is perfect" language of First Corinthians, as if the completion of the Scriptures would end the need for specific, predictive prophecy.
Take for example the prophecy Agabus delivered in the Book of Acts when he the declared that a great famine was coming. This was useful information for the church and in spite of Dr. Sproul's declaration to the contrary, was highly "predictive."
How would the coming of the New Testament end the need for such contempary words from God? Is there any reason why Christians no longer need to know things that are going to happen.
The Scriptures say that we are not to despise prophesying and yet so many evangelical preachers and teachers today do exactly that and with a wave of their hand relegate such gifts to a bygone day, even though they cannot show one single verse of Scripture that says that such gifts will cease due to the completion of the New Testament, which was not to be compiled in any useful sense for hundreds of years.
There is no shortage of crackpot prophets out there saying "Thus saith the Lord," when they shouldn't. But we are not to despise prophesying because there are false prophets. We are to judge their words and the plum line by which they are to be judged is first and foremost the written Word of God.
David,
Thanks for your thoughts. Is it your view then that we have prophets in our day that are exactly as they were in the Old Testament? The ones who are to be stoned if they ever get one wrong? The ones who raised up the dead? The ones who wrote the Bible? If God's immutability means He can't change how He speaks (which would make not just me but Hebrews wrong) why aren't we still adding to our Bibles?
The fact that the Bible is complete does not diminish the need for prophecy. All prophecy is subject to the Scriptures for God does not contradict Himself, but that is not to say that God does not still guide.
It is ironic that those who teach that God no longer speaks usually believe that they are called by God to their ministries, which of course implies that God still guides and directs.
ABSOLUTELY, stone them?? We have a lot of people today who promote themselves as prophets and are misleading MANY, and stoning them would END a lot of deception today.
However, that being said, RC why do you ONLY point to the prophets of the O.T. and make no mention to the arguments given, such as Eph. 4:11-13, "He gave some Apostles and Prophets... [for what reason?] to equip THE SAINTS to do the work of service, to build up the Body of Christ... UNTIL we ALL COME TO a UNITY of faith".
Has the Body come to that UNITY? With over 10,000 denominations I would say that we STILL have a long way to go!
Does the Body still need to be built up?
Has the CHURCH become a MATURE MAN?
Is Jesus Christ still alive? And if He is has HE changed or is He the SAME?
In the Great Commission in Mat. 28:18, Jesus PROMISED “… Lo I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Then in Mark 16:20 it says, “And they went out and preached everywhere, while THE LORD WORKED WITH THEM, and [HE] CONFIRMED the word by the signs that followed.”
So has the Lord BROKEN HIS PROMISE and abandoned us? Has He quit confirming HIS WORD?
Mark 16 HE PROMISED to be with us UNTIL the end, and it is HE who calls and sends.
I can agree that there has been a great many false prophets over the years BUT the whole “Idea of Cessation” is NOT BIBLICAL and in fact should be seen for what IT IS!! [READ - I Timothy 4:1 and II Timothy 3:5]
Gentlemen,
Still waiting for an answer to my question. The piece I wrote argued for continuity and discontinuity, some things remain, some do not. We continue to have prophets in one sense, but not in another. Some of you have argued that nothing has changed. So what about my questions? Do we stone those whose prophecies do not come true? Do today's prophets raise people from the dead as they did in the Old and New Testaments? Do we add their words to the Word? Why not?
One other thing. We know who many of the prophets were in the Bible. Can you tell me the name of a modern day prophet who has a. never been wrong in a prophecy and b. raised people from the dead?
no there are not prophets today. from the WORD: GOD, who at sundry times spake IN TIME PAST unto the fathers by the PROPHETS, hath in these last days SPOKEN UNTO US BY HIS SON(hebrews 1:1,2). that is god speaks to us from HIS WORD, the bible. revelation 22:18 warns NOT to add to his word. he will reveal his word to us. for example, the book of daniel was a closed book till these end times for us to understand. ed at...edwinrad@hotmail.com
ed.
with the completion of the bible there are no prophets today and revelation 22:18 gives a warning to anyone who adds to god's word.
from the WORD: GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us BY HIS SON(hebrews 1:1,2). that is, he speaks from HIS WORD, the bible. however, some books for example daniel has been a closed book till these last days to be understood. but there is NO new revelation.
"...I will give power unto ...two witnesses, and they shall prophesy..." (Rev. 11:3)
I agree with wally
It is pretty hard to believe that
God placed prophets in the church (we know that they were in the early church), and the Bible says that the two witnesses of Revelation will prophesy (they will be in the end times),
Yet R. C. says there will be none in between, with no biblical proof.
Who should we believe?
God, or R. C.?????
rc said...
Gentlemen,
Still waiting for an answer to my question. The piece I wrote argued for continuity and discontinuity, some things remain, some do not. We continue to have prophets in one sense, but not in another. Some of you have argued that nothing has changed. So what about my questions?
Do we stone those whose prophecies do not come true?
Answer: Are we living under the old covenant, or the new?
Under the new, we would not, unless directed by the Holy Spirit of God to do so. I can't imagine that happening, but I can't limit God, as some people choose to do.
Do today's prophets raise people from the dead as they did in the Old and New Testaments?
Answer: Not all prophets (in either testament) have been recorded as raising the dead; some did, some didn't.
Do today's prophets raise people from the dead? No.
It is always God, not man that performs a miracle. It always has been that way, even with Jesus.
Do miracles occur today? Yes
We cannot limit God to what kind of actions He wants to perform through His people.
Do we add their words to the Word? Why not?
Answer: The Bible is a completed revelation of God to the Church. As such it applies to every person in the Church.
However, this does not stop God from revealing to individuals, or groups of individuals (not the whole Church) His truth and direction for them through His Prophets today, and He does.
March 21, 2011 12:20 PM
edwinrad said...
no there are not prophets today. from the WORD: GOD, who at sundry times spake IN TIME PAST unto the fathers by the PROPHETS, hath in these last days SPOKEN UNTO US BY HIS SON(hebrews 1:1,2). that is god speaks to us from HIS WORD, the bible. revelation 22:18 warns NOT to add to his word. he will reveal his word to us. for example, the book of daniel was a closed book till these end times for us to understand. ed at...edwinrad@hotmail.com
March 22, 2011 9:03 AM
garson's answer:
You make a huge mistake when you change what scripture says to suit your theology.
Scripture never says that Jesus (His Son) is the Bible (your claim). Jesus is God, and the Bible is a creation of God.
Also, there were plenty of prophets alive, ministering and speaking in the power of the Holy Spirit, long after Jesus died and returned to the right hand of the Father.
rc said...
One other thing. We know who many of the prophets were in the Bible. Can you tell me the name of a modern day prophet who has a. never been wrong in a prophecy and b. raised people from the dead?
March 21, 2011 12:42 PM
I am one of many people alive today who have been called of God to be a modern day prophet.
If we knew of a prophecy that we gave which did not come true, we would have identified ourselves as a false prophet (not a prophet of God). If this had ever happened, we could no longer consider ourselves a prophet of God, could we?
As to the second part of your question about raising the dead, as I said before, not all prophets in the past have raised the dead so this cannot be considered a mark of a prophet. As I understand the Bible, it says that signs and wonders mark an Apostle, not a Prophet.
The "Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements" have thrown the church into confusion and disarray. They have forsaken the Reformation principle of "Scripture only". Although they may pay lip service to this principle, in fact they have chosen to follow their own vain imaginings, which they call "prophecy".
They do not see the Reformation as their historical base. Their emphasis on miracles and healing places them much closer to the Catholic church than to the Reformed faith.
The Charismatic movement sees itself as a "new move of God in these last days", therefore prophecy and new revelation is essential to them as it forms the very basis of why they believe they exist. In fact there is nothing new about their beliefs at all. This is an ancient heresy, which was labeled as such early in the history of the Church. But they do not know that, because, being a "new move of God", they have chosen to ignore the history and creeds of the Church.
The Pentecostal and Charismatic movements are a mixture of truth and error, and this is the worst kind of deception.
If ika is basing his theology on the history and creeds of the church, rather than upon the truth of scripture, can I believe much of what he says?
PS
To prevent confusion, garson and Gary Simpson are one and the same
garson,
I agree with a lot of your comments and thought you have well answered R.C's questions.
I'd like to ask you a question:
Do you believe women should be silent in church, in accordance with the apostle's command in 1Cor14:33-36?
The reason I ask is that this is what Paul says is a criteria for someone to be 'a prophet or spiritual'.
Also, what have you prophesied that came true, and do you have any documentation? Thanks.
Henry said:
garson
I'd like to ask you a question:
(1) Do you believe women should be silent in church, in accordance with the apostle's command in 1 Cor14:33-36?
Answer (1): Yes Henry, I believe that women should be silent in the churches, in accordance with the apostle's command in 1 Cor 14:33-36.
In case we doubt or ignore this command, Paul repeated it for us in 1 Tim 2:12.
(2) Also, what have you prophesied that came true, and do you have any documentation? Thanks.
Answer (2) `The times that God has asked me to give His message to certain men (prophecy), were for the purpose of repentence and restoration of these men, not for exaulting the prophet or proving his authenticity.
The prophecies were given in private, not public, and there is a measure of confidentiality about them.
Also, I trust in God to make the prophecies come true, and to authenticate the prophet, if this becomes necessary.
I have no desire to blow my own horn, or to prove anything to anybody.
The fact that a prophecy hasn't yet come true, does not prove that someone is a false prophet. Some of Daniels end times prophecies are yet to be fulfilled. What is important, is that you have not even one false prophecy.
Every true prophet of God will have the source of his prophecy be the mind of Almighty God.
Every false prophet will have the source of his prophecy be his own human mind.
God does not call a prophet to prove him/herself, but to simply proclaim the Word of God. We leave the results to Him.
Thanks for asking, Henry.
Henry wrote:
The reason I ask is that this is what Paul says is a criteria for someone to be 'a prophet or spiritual'.
Answer: I see it slightly different, although we may both be saying the same thing in different ways.
Paul was a prophet, as well as a spiritual man.
As a prophet, God spoke to Paul, and Paul delivered God's message to God's intended recipient/s.
As a spiritual man, God spoke to Paul as Paul was led by the Holy Spirit, and no longer followed after his flesh (fallen nature).
In both cases, Paul's spirit was in unity with God's Holy Spirit.
He was not saying that a qualification for being a prophet (or spiritual man) was to believe that women should be silent in the churches.
What he was saying, is that if any man was a prophet, or spiritual, his spirit would also be in unity with God's Holy Spirit (as Paul's was), and that they would be in agreement on this, as well as other commands of God.
God's Holy Spirit brings unity to mature believers who are fully surrendered to His control of their life (walking in the Spirit).
>>What he was saying, is that if any man was a prophet, or spiritual, his spirit would also be in unity with God's Holy Spirit (as Paul's was), and that they would be in agreement on this, as well as other commands of God.
Does it not follow from this that if a person claims to be a prophet and does not receive the Apostle's command in 1Cor14:33-36 then his claim is bogus?
Henry said:
Does it not follow from this that if a person claims to be a prophet and does not receive the Apostle's command in 1Cor14:33-36 then his claim is bogus?
Answer: I would say so.
How can the Spirit of God say one thing through the apostle Paul, and then give us the opposite, or another direction through a present day prophet; it just won't happen.
God does not change, and His Word also does not change.
If the spirit by which a man speaks is in conflict with what scripture says, then the man does not speak by the Holy Spirit of God, but by a false spirit.
In his opening comments about the existence of present day prophets of God, RC Sproul Jr made some interesting, and I believe unbiblical statements, which I would like to comment on, one at a time.
Statement #1:
Foretelling the future never was and never will be the calling of the prophet. The prophet, instead, is called to speak God’s Word to God’s people.
Comment #1:
While it is true that a prophet of God is called to speak God’s Word to God’s people, he is also occasionally called to speak God’s Word to heathen people, such as the case of Jonah being sent to Nineveh, Joseph being sent to Pharoah, and Daniel being sent to Nebuchadnezzar .
We cannot put God in a box. God’s prophet is called to speak God’s Word to whomever God wants it to be proclaimed.
Also, foretelling the future has often been God’s message to His prophet. Examples include:
1- Joseph gives God’s interpretation of Pharoh’s dream, which included seven years of abundance followed by seven years of famine. (Gen 41:25-32)
2- Daniel tells King Nebuchadnezzar what his dream was (large statue), and its meaning (four kingdoms). (Dan 2:24-45)
3- Jesus tells us in Matthew Chapter 24 about the future. (V1-35)
4- The apostle John tells us of future events to come in the Book of Revelation. (Chapters 1-22)
I believe that the Word of God (Bible) clearly refutes the statement #1 made by RC in his opening comments.
Gary
Statement #2:
Because God spoke directly to the prophet in the Old Covenant, there certainly could be greater specificity to the prediction: your descendants will be slaves in Egypt for 400 years; the son of your adultery will die; the Assyrians are going to wipe the floor with you; you will return from exile; a prophet greater than Moses will come.
Comment #2:
RC has certainly placed God in a box here.
How could the method God chose to speak to His prophet (dreams, visions, face to face, by the Spirit) possibly limit the specificity of His prediction?
There are no limits to God. He can be just as specific regardless of the method employed.
Gary
Statement #3:
This was God’s message, and either implicitly or explicitly it always carried the notion of forgiveness for repentance and judgment for failure to repent. Does God still speak this way? Yes, and no. No, because we have the complete Word of God.
Comment #3:
When RC makes a preposterous statement like the one above, that God does not speak through prophets in the New Testament as He did in the Old Testament because we have the complete Word of God, he aligns himself with other false teachers who also make statements that the scriptures just don’t support.
1- The Bible, although not to be added to, is not the complete Word of God; it is simply the written word of God. The complete Word of God is Jesus Christ Himself. The Bible never claims to contain (and does not) all of the wisdom and knowledge that Jesus knows. The Bible is simply a portion of the wisdom and knowledge of God that He has chosen to reveal to mankind in the written word. The Bible contains public information that applies to all men.
2- God also uses His prophets to deliver private information that applies only to specific men. While it is just as authoritative as is scripture, since it came from the same source, God Himself, it is not scripture and cannot be applied to all men, but only to those to whom it is delivered by the prophet. This is new revelation that many men ignorantly deny the existence of.
3- The apostle Paul tells us to be Bereans (Acts 17:11) when we hear a statement like RC’s, and to search the scriptures to see if it is so. Even with an exhaustive search of the scriptures, we will find no support what-so-ever for RC’s conclusion; it is unscriptural. RC will not deny that God placed prophets in the New Testament Church (Eph 4:11), and scripture says that prophecies will cease (1 Cor 13:8-10) when perfecion comes. What the Bible does not say, is that the Bible is that perfection which makes prophecies obsolete. This is an invention of the mind of man, and not a truth from the mind of God. The Bible just doesn’t support it, because it is not God’s truth.
4- Lastly, the written word of God cannot speak to us with the same effectiveness and power as can the Spirit of God. If it could, there would have been no necessity of having a New Covenant (of the Spirit - 2 Cor 3:6), to replace the Old Covenant of the letter. Our obedience under the New Covenant is to the Holy Spirit of God indwelling us, and not to the words of scripture written in the Bible. The Law of the Spirit of Life (Rom 8:1) that sets us free from the Law of Sin and Death tells us that the righteous requirements of the law will be fully met in us who do not live according to the sinful nature, but according to the Spirit (Rom 8:4).
Our born-again position and walk with God (subsequent righteousness) is no longer dependent upon what we do, but in our complete surrender and obedience to the Holy Spirit of God. This allows Jesus Christ to live unrestricted in us and to accomplish the will of the Father in our lives.
RC said:
Statement #4
Prophets in our day then do not receive new revelation from God. They do, however, continue to proclaim the Word of God.
Gary’s comment #4:
RC is right off-base here again. What he should have said is that prophets in our day then do not receive new scripture from God. This would be a true statement since scripture, and not revelation is a closed book. While there is no more new public revelation for the church (scripture), there is much new private revelation to individuals or groups (prophecy).
Another misunderstanding is when people like RC will teach you that modern day prophets continue to proclaim the word of God, but with no new revelation.
In actuality, men who proclaim the word of God with no new revelation are not prophets at all, but preachers, teachers, and evangelists, who simply proclaim what has already been revealed.
In the same way, husbands do not prophesy to their wives or parents prophesy to their children as RC erroneously states, but they teach what has already been revealed.
Prophecy, old or new, happens when God gives a specific message (new revelation) to a man (His prophet/prophetess) who then delivers the message to the man or men that God has designated to receive it.
During the formation of the canon of scripture, God used prophets to record for us the word that He wanted included; thus the assembly of scripture stopped, but prophecy goes on as long as our sovereign God chooses to individually speak to men.
Hey guys, I have always believed that NT prophesy is only right if it lines up and validates the written Word. I believe that NT prophets do not receive "new revelation" because all revelation is contained already in the scripture. A prophecy in assembly is used to edify and encourage the saints. I have heard one say that Herbert Armstrong was an "apostle". That scared me because I thought there were only 12(really 13) apostles! The Word says that judging of prophesy in assembly is to be done by other prophets and, of course, those with knowledge of the Word. Predicting of the future in prophesy can be very dangerous. The future has already been predicted in the Bible. We have our plate full in studying the revelation already given! If a saint feels that God said somrthing like "call so and so and tell them not to board that plane as it is going to crash" would be very sad if they didn't tell that person and the plane actually did crash! This can be considered as the word of knowledge, I guess, and that gift is listed right along with the other manifestations of the Spirit in ICorinthians 12:7-10. So, if we throw out prophecy(in the context that i said above) then I guess we have to negate the rest of the gifts too!
JillSaint said...
Hey guys, I have always believed that NT prophesy is only right if it lines up and validates the written Word.
Gary’s comment:
Since all true prophecy has the same source (the mind of God), it will not be in conflict with the prophecy recorded in the written word (Bible).
However, the written word does not need to be validated; it stands on its own. The purpose of prophecy is not to validated scripture, but to send a message from God to man using a prophet to communicate it.
JillSaint said...
I believe that NT prophets do not receive "new revelation" because all revelation is contained already in the scripture.
Gary’s comment:
The Bible denies what you just said. Daniel’s prophecy was sealed up to be revealed in the end times.
DA 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
DA 12:5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
DA 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
DA 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
DA 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
DA 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
JillSaint said...
I have heard one say that Herbert Armstrong was an "apostle". That scared me because I thought there were only 12(really 13) apostles!
Gary’s comments:
Herbert W Armstrong is considered by most Christians to have been a false apostle, who founded a cult called the Worldwide Church of God, and led many people away from a personal relationship with the Creator.
Many men (18+) are identified in the Bible as apostles.
Jesus Heb 3:1
The 11 with Judas Matt 10:2
Matthias Acts 1:26
Barnabas Acts 14:14
Paul Rom 1:1
Andronicus Rom 16:7
Junius Rom 16:7
in the church 1 Cor 12:28 Eph 4:11
Every church that was established contained apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers.
That's what I said... all revelation is contained in scripture. Daniel's prophecy that you referred to is not a new revelation, in the context of this dialogue, it is just a sealed up one.
Jesus was The Apostle, sent by the Father to testify of Him. The apostles were sent out by Christ to testify of Him. Please don't confuse things by labeling Him "an apostle".
Barnabas was Paul's companion chosen by him, not an apostle chosen by Jesus. As far as Andronicus and Junia, being "of note" among the apostles(or trusted) is far different than being chosen by Jesus himself.
And, no, the Bible does not validate itself in the sense
that you are inferring. Only
careful study of fulfilled OT prophecey and the book of Revelation validate(or help to confirm it to others). Once a person truly accepts that Jesus of Nazareth was the son of God, was born of a virgin, was crucified and was raised from the dead then the study of Gods Holy Word opens
to them in a revelatory way. By this I mean that given its writing under the guide of the Holy Spirit,
It can be also understood by the Holy Spirit revealing it's Truth beyond the intellect.
Jill Saint said:
That's what I said... all revelation is contained in scripture. Daniel's prophecy that you referred to is not a new revelation, in the context of this dialogue, it is just a sealed up one.
Gary’s comment:
Although it is contained in scripture, it has been sealed up, and its contents and truth has not yet been revealed to me or you. It will not be revealed until the end times, and therefore will be new revelation to each of us (if we are there to read it).
The scriptures, in and of themselves, are not the complete revelation of God. The bible says that they can only be understood in their completeness, as the Spirit of God gives us discernment (1 Cor 2:13-14).
Revelation from God is not a one time act of God who gives us the Bible and that is all we get. It is a day by day revelation of the truth of God to each and every child of God who asks Him for wisdom (James 1:5).
The Holy Spirit is our teacher, and will lead us into all truth. He does this by revealing (revelation) to each one of us, just what He wants us to understand.
Revelation from God is from His Holy Spirit, and not just from the Bible. We can not place any of man’s restrictions on the Holy Spirit, and say that He cannot reveal anything new to His children, apart from what is already recorded in the Bible.
We do not tell God what He can and cannot do. He tells us what we can and cannot do. He is God, not us.
Gary
PS: Don't confuse scripture with revelation. All scripture is revelation from God, but all revelation from God is not scripture. There is much more revelation than scripture.
There is still more revelation to come from His two end time prophets who will prophesy (see Rev 11:3-6).
Ok, Gary, It is apparent that you believe you are a prophet and that you feel that giving someone a personal, private prophesy is ok. I have met several Christians that believe this, too and I have to say that I probably could have gone to the local psychic and heard a better reading. No offense intended to you, of course. The Charismatic and Pentecostal churches are teaming with this sort of teaching. The Bible clearly teaches that prophesy in the church is to be judged by other prophets. This teaching is excellent in that it will hinder people running around giving personal prophesy in a private setting. As far as the 2 prophets in Revelation, I don't plan to be
here because I will have met Jesus Christ in the air and will be forever with the Lord! The part that you don't understand,Gary, is
that God forbids adding anything to the revelation given in the Bible. If you want to give a brother some good advice or tell him something that you, from experience, think will help him, fine. But, please don't call this sort of thing prophesy, cause it isn't!
Ok Gary, it is apparent that you think that you are a prophet. The Word says that prophesy in the church is to be judged by other prophets. You think that it is ok to give personal prophesy in a private setting to another. I know a few people that believe and do this, also, and I could go to a local psychic and get the same or a better reading! It is not a doctrinally sound position that you are taking. What passages in Scripture can you point to that support personal prophesy in the NT? Also, the HS is absolutely not going to give people revelation outside of the Bible. Praying with people, admonishing, reproving, even rebuking is totally Biblical.
I just believe that there are passages in Scripture that conflict with you stated views about prophesy. If you choose to ignore these passages(and ,also,I
noticed that you ignored most of what i said in my last comment) and form your own doctrine and just pick out passages that emphasize what you believe support it, then you have not accounted for everything that God says about it!
No, there is not more revelation beyond scripture! This is a form of gnosticism: believing in the esoteric. Our dialogue will now be over except that I admonish you to read 2Tim 2:15. Oh,as far as the 2 prophets in Revelation I will already have met the Lord in the air and will be with Him forever more! Hope to see you there! Goodbye Gary!
Jill Saint said:
What passages in Scripture can you point to that support personal prophesy in the NT?
Gary's comment:
Simple. the scriptures give us examples of both prophecies which are directed to multitudes (non personal), and to individuals (personal).
The first, non personal, is found in Acts 11:28, which affected all people in the world:
AC 11:28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
The second, personal, is found in Acts 21:10-11, which affected only the apostle Paul.
AC 21:10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.
AC 21:11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.
As you can clearly see, new testament scripture has recorded for us examples of both personal and non personal prophecy.
Your assumption that because scripture has been closed, that prophecy has also been closed, is simply absurd, and has no biblical support what-so-ever.
Likewise, your assumption that new testament prophets can only operate within the confines of the church is wrong. No where in scripture does the bible state this. While that may be their normal role, don't try to put God in a box and say that he cannot deviate from this.
Gary
PS If you feel that I have not adequately answered your previous post, ask the questions again, one at a time, and I will try to respond to each one separately.
Ok, Gary! Yes, I am saying that prophecy(after the fulfilment of NT canon) is limited to the church. I am sorry to break your bottle(Heb 5:13) but there is a more sure word of prophecy, 2Peter 1:19...whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your heart...V.20Knowing this first that NO PROPHECY OF SCRIPTURE is of any private interpretation...NOT BY THE WILL OF MAN...etc. And isn't it ironic that after tha t in chapter 2 Peter goes right into warnings of false teachers.
Prophesy in the Body today(keeping in mind 2Pet 1:19) is given unto men for edification, and exhortation, and comfort and is the only minisry left given to the saints and is to be practiced by all. Sound doctrine is to be taught by those that are of "full age" and are skillful in the word of righteousness (Heb 5:13,14 again). Also Heb 6:1-6 speaks of renewing those who are falling into apostasy which I am sure means straightening out wrong doctrinal beliefs and practices.
Agabus was a proven prophet of the future. He was the one spoken of in Acts 11:28 and what he prophesied did happen. He was sent so that the disciples could prepare relief for the brethren which dwelt in Judea and just before that God brought Barnabas and Saul back to Antioch and these two ended up being the ones that took the relief to Judea! And,by the way, there were witnesses of what was told to Paul by Agabus in Acts 21:12-14. One of them was Luke who also wrote the book of Acts!
Part 1
Anonymous said...
Ok, Gary! Yes, I am saying that prophecy(after the fulfilment of NT canon) is limited to the church.
Gary’s comment:
Prophecy has never been limited to the church. Scripture tells us that there are, and have always been, two kinds of prophets:
1- A prophet of God who gets his message from the mind of God;
2- and a false prophet, who gets his message from his own mind.
Anonymous also said...
I am sorry to break your bottle(Heb 5:13) but there is a more sure word of prophecy, 2Peter 1:19...whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your heart...
Gary’s comment:
The “more sure word of prophecy”, spoken of in 2 Peter 1:19, is not referring to the new testament scriptures, but the old. All scripture, old and new is given by prophecy. The more sure words of prophecy, are the prophecies which were given in the old testament, and fulfilled in the new, thus proving, or making the prophecy more sure.
The day star spoken of in v19 is none other than the lord Jesus, the fulfillment of old testament prophecies of a coming messiah. This was proven on the mount of transfiguration when the Heavenly Father proclaimed, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased,...” as witnessed by Peter, James, and John. (Matt 17:5)
God’s truth remains intact.
Gary
To be continued:
Part 2
Anonymous again said...
V.20Knowing this first that NO PROPHECY OF SCRIPTURE is of any private interpretation...NOT BY THE WILL OF MAN...etc. And isn't it ironic that after tha t in chapter 2 Peter goes right into warnings of false teachers.
Prophesy in the Body today(keeping in mind 2Pet 1:19) is given unto men for edification, and exhortation, and comfort and is the only minisry left given to the saints and is to be practiced by all.
Gary’s comment:
For every good thing of God (prophecy), Satan has a counterfeit. God has prophets; Satan has false prophets.
Is it really surprising that after scripture talks about God’s true prophets, that He would continue on to warn us about Satan’s false ones? It seems quite normal to me.
Prophecy today, in the body or out of the body, is decided by God, not us. Please don’t try to tell God what He can, and can’t do.
No where in scripture does it say that the ministry of prophecy is given to the saints and is to be practiced by all. In fact, scripture says just the opposite:
1 Cor 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts.
All of the body of Christ does not have any one gift. God decides who gets what. (1 Cor 12:18)
Anonymous again said...
Sound doctrine is to be taught by those that are of "full age" and are skillful in the word of righteousness (Heb 5:13,14 again). Also Heb 6:1-6 speaks of renewing those who are falling into apostasy which I am sure means straightening out wrong doctrinal beliefs and practices.
Agabus was a proven prophet of the future. He was the one spoken of in Acts 11:28 and what he prophesied did happen. He was sent so that the disciples could prepare relief for the brethren which dwelt in Judea and just before that God brought Barnabas and Saul back to Antioch and these two ended up being the ones that took the relief to Judea! And,by the way, there were witnesses of what was told to Paul by Agabus in Acts 21:12-14. One of them was Luke who also wrote the book of Acts!
Gary’s comment:
I just don’t get the point of all of your many words. Please explain?
Final comment:
Is it possible for any one of us to testify for Jesus Christ if in our personal testimony, we don’t tell anyone who we are? Will there be any persons named “anonymous” written in the Lamb’s Book of Life?
Is hiding behind an anonymous name due to being ashamed of identifying who you are, and who you belong to (Jesus)?
Luke 9:26 says:
26 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Just wondering
Gary
Lol, sorry, Gary, something must have happened when I tried to sign in comment. You are such a silly guy! I have never read a persons comment that takes scripture out of context to support a view of prophecy in NT as you do! Your ignorance in hiding behind the idea that the comment "anonymous" gives you freedom to spew a rebuke that I am denying Christ is deplorable. How dare you! None of my comments have denied My Lord Jesus Christ, the King of heaven and earth. And frankly, Gary, you would of been farther ahead responding to the comment itself, rather than a displaying a distasteful tirade of insults! You said that you don't see the point of my many words. Of course, you don't because they expose your views as infantile and in serious need of correction! I forgive you for this but if you continue to distort the word of God you will find yourself falling into more and more apostasy. This is the second warning and I am not required to give you another! 1Thess 5:14, Jude 22:23.
Jill Saint said...
Lol, sorry, Gary, something must have happened when I tried to sign in comment.
Gary’s comment:
What must have happened is that you signed in as Anonymous instead of Jill Saint.
Jill Saint said...
You are such a silly guy! I have never read a persons comment that takes scripture out of context to support a view of prophecy in NT as you do!
Gary’s comment:
Do you really believe that God’s prophets are “silly guys?” Do you also think that God is a silly guy, since He gives His prophets their understanding? Perhaps the problem is not with God and His prophets, but with those who are in “unbelief”, and lack the spiritual understanding that God gives to His children. Perhaps that is why you think that I am taking the truth of God’s word out of context.
If you really believe that I have taken anything out of context, please provide specifics rather than just blindly accusing.
Jill Saint said...
Your ignorance in hiding behind the idea that the comment "anonymous" gives you freedom to spew a rebuke that I am denying Christ is deplorable. How dare you! None of my comments have denied My Lord Jesus Christ, the King of heaven and earth. And frankly, Gary, you would of been farther ahead responding to the comment itself, rather than a displaying a distasteful tirade of insults!
Gary’s comment:
You need to stop blindly accusing, and read what I said before you fire a broadside shot. I was asking questions, three of them. Each one ended with a question mark. I was not accusing you, simply asking you to explain your actions.
Jill Saint said...
You said that you don't see the point of my many words. Of course, you don't because they expose your views as infantile and in serious need of correction! I forgive you for this but if you continue to distort the word of God you will find yourself falling into more and more apostasy. This is the second warning and I am not required to give you another! 1Thess 5:14, Jude 22:23.
Gary’s comment:
You do have many words, but they seriously lack spiritual understanding. The blble says in John 16:13-15:
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
If you want spiritual understanding, it doesn’t come from a bible school or seminary, or at the feet of men like R.C., but at the feet of Jesus, by His Holy Spirit.
One last question, since you seem to be giving warnings on behalf of God? By what authority do you give these warnings, and what proof do you have that you are a sheep (wheat), and not a goat (tare). Goats make a lot of noise, but they have no authority from God.
Gary
R.C., what is your view of women teaching in the church today under the "authority" that they are prophetesses?
And do you believe that Jesus would have come and physically sat with said prophetess? ( obviously this is what I have been told by a woman I know) thanks for your input-Kristi
Where in scripture does it say that a prophetess can teach in church?
Delivening a prophecy is not teaching.
Where in scripture does it say that a prophetess can prophecy in church?
It is pretty hard to prophecy or teach if you must remain silent. Those who don't, are in rebellion against the Word of God.
I wish I had the luxury of debate when it comes to the idea of prophets today. I have been called as a prophet by the LORD, and as my forerunners could attest, it is both a blessing and burden. Has the LORD revealed future events to me?: Yes. Did I always know what they meant? No. Among these were the early death of my father, as well as the events of Sept 11, 2001. In my experience, the model has changed a bit in the modern setting, but let me assure you: He is still calling and consecrating. I agree that comforting and exhorting the church is part of it, as well as proclaiming the WORD. I have met very, very few people who share my experience, and I have run across some whose measure of power is greater. For those who don't have the experiential knowledge of what I'm speaking of, I can almost be assured of your skepticism and disbelief. However, my goal is not to "exalt my own horn". The LORD has instructed me not to do so, and I have no desire to. I suppose I just want the church to know that He loves them, and that He is still setting people apart to serve them. Pax Christi.
God (JEHOVAH) appointed me his prophet on July 30/31, 2003 at midnight. Both God spoke to me and Jesus spoke to me. Jesus even had me to swallow a key. They are two different persons. I know this. God uses me in the following ways: (1) God gives me dreams about the coming ethnic cleansing coming to the U.S.A. to target evil doers (post U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003). (2) God gives me dreams about Jesus' crucifixion and also his 2nd coming which I turn into either illustrated poetry or put in illustrated parable format. The parables illustrate a parable Jesus already gave, just expressed/told in a very new and interesting way which I never could have come up with myself. God uses animals in my dreams such as Great White Sharks, Blue Jays, Hawks, etc. Also, I wrote a Gospel called The Gospel of Davy Crockett concerning Jesus the Christ, which has some very profound words/comparisons that deeply touch the soul. The last time and only time God and Jesus have ever visited me and gave me their WORD, was on July 30/31, 2003, and Jesus gave this parting comment: "Until we meet again.".
I do want to confirm God uses 3s to confirm himself e.g. God coming to the boy Samuel 3 times before Eli knew it was God, Jesus 3 days, 3 nights in the earth, Jesus asked Peter 3 times if he loved him, Peter denied the Lord 3 times, and Peter had a vision of a sheet of unclean and common animals dropped and raised before him 3 times. God has used 3s in the same way to confirm himself to me. This is significant. The craziest thing God ever asked me was this: "Pick a date". Like Peter, I was aghast, "No Lord, that is too much information for me to know!" I cried. But the Holy Spirit told me later that week that what God was referring to was the date that God would let loose his destroying angel to being surveying the United States for evil doers. That ethinc cleansing was at least fulfilled in part in late summer 2005. And yes, God considers evil doers an ethnic group of their own.
Hi RC Jr,
As a long time prophet, who only speaks when God tells me to and has failed to speak often because I really don't enjoy my gifting, I now feel it's time to share a bit.
Why? Because God is calling up more prophets. Our nation is on the pinnacle of life or death. I don't have a message for America. In fact, all but one of the messages God has delivered through me have been to individuals about situations I couldn't possibly have known about.
I do however sense the changing winds of the Holy Spirit. God is raising up people who will speak what they hear, and he's calling America to repent.
I find it fascinating that Satan is also calling up prophets, and his prophets aren't afraid to speak. Only those of us called by the one and only Christian God are being told to sit down and shut up.
So today I would like to submit to you that God is still in the business of speaking to his beloved children. I sense that he will soon be speaking to the nation through his prophets, because it is very clear to me that he is calling us to repent. I don't know if he'll raise up one 'Jonah' or a series of 'Jonah's', but for the first time ever, I'm being asked to mentor a young prophet. It's yet to be determined whether or not I will be permitted to by her parents, because we have completely discredited this spiritual gift.
That child will be a prophet whether they give her permission to be mentored or not, but she'll struggle alone as she learns to discern the spirit of God from her own thoughts and the prompting of Satan, if they believe what they read about modern day prophets.
I know, there are many, many false prophets. I've seen a few in the church. Today, for the first time, I wondered what was on the world wide web; and Satan is calling them up left and right.
There are also true believers who are called to prophesy to the world today. The church has made fun of us, and completely discredited us to the point that we're very quiet about our gifts; but we still exist.
You are a leader, living in the legacy of your father. Please read the works of the prophets in the book of Kings. Your gift is teaching, but mine is prophecy and it still exists today.
If our true prophets aren't given the support of the church, our nation stands no chance for revival.
Rather than discrediting our prophets, wouldn't it be better to teach them to "speak the truth in love", and go to an individual with their sin, rather than declaring it from the roof top?
We train teachers and we train pastors, but the prophets are left on their own. I don't believe God intends it to be that way. I also know that God isn't calling us to worship separately in our own church. We are an essential part of the body of Christ.
I'd like to submit to you that Billy Graham is also a prophet. I have heard him espouse on the radio the things that God had previously spoken to my heart.
Please prayerfully consider just how big God is today, and how much he still loves us and longs to be involved in every aspect of our lives.
Thank you for you time.
Having now read several of the other comments, I'll share an experience with you that lines up with several others on here.
I was not called to prophesy in this event. I was only called to pray. I was alone in the home and God called me to lay 'prostrate' and pray in the spirit. I thought it was nuts, but I did it. After an extended period of praying for something God didn't reveal to me, I felt God say, "It is finished".
Several hours later I learned that we had taken Baghdad in something like three minutes during the time I was on the floor praying.
No one will ever convince me we weren't supposed to be there. God was with us.
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